I actually think we’re all overthinking this politeness aspect when it comes to ‘você’. On the other hand, we’ve been overlooking another angle: omitting pronouns in Portuguese is also about conversational efficiency. We like to omit them whenever possible because half of the time, we just don’t need them. Our verbs are so heavily conjugated that they almost make pronouns redundant.
So, if you’re having a conversation with someone, you don’t need to constantly repeat “Tu” or “Você” or the person’s name or title. They know you’re talking to them. You can start many sentences with just the respective verb. You avoid any potential faux-pas, sure, but you also sound much more natural. I’d say that’s the biggest reward.
Now, don’t suddenly stop using pronouns! Just… mix it up tastefully.
It is a funny thing, and too much can be made out of it all. I have been called “Mr. Harald” fairly often by Europeans. Americans don’t usually speak that way, but other cultures do. I may be surprised at such usage, but I never say anything because it is meant very well!!
Hi, @hscharnhorst! I, also, have been called “Mr. David” in certain specific situations here in the US, and, while my immediate reaction is to feel flattered, the deeper feeling I have is that I wish the person addressing me in that manner would perceive themselves as an equal and call me “David,” just as I call them by their first name and see them as an equal. As you say, it is meant well–but in this situation, it is a sad reminder of a sad aspect of American culture–and I will leave it at that. And, please forgive me if this is not relevant to the discussion.
Senhor Joel e toda a gente - tenho uma pergunta duma case que se calhar seja considerado especial.
Se eu estava conversando com uma pessoa que não conhecia bém e no final da nossa conversa eu queria dizer algo agradável para ele e sua esposa. Disse-lhe, “Espero que você e a Maria têm um bom fim da semana.”
Então, neste caso é o uso de “você” apróprio ou não?
For those of us not as far advanced in Portuguese, it would be lovely to get a translation of this into English. The comments are, for the most part, too difficult to understand well. Obrigado! Harald
Made some corrections to your post, if you don’t mind! I think it’s absolutely fine to use você here, especially followed by such kind words. If in doubt, you can always spin it into “Espero que vocês tenham um bom fim de semana” or a short & sweet “Bom fim de semana!”.
(I would translate it into English as well, as I agree that keeping up with all the Portuguese writing can be quite a challenge for those less advanced. However, I can’t personally commit to translating everybody’s messages; it would be too time-consuming on top of correcting and responding to them. I suppose the easiest thing to do would be to do a quick check on Google Translate or any similar tool, if anything is unclear. Also, if any of you don’t mind translating your messages, feel free to do so, it would be very appreciated. In any case, please don’t stop writing in Portuguese – otherwise, what would be the point? )
Translation Joel and everyone - I have a question about a case that perhaps can be considered special.
If I was talking with a person that I didn’t know well and at the end of the conversation I wanted to say something nice for him and his wife. I said to him, “I hope you and Maria have a good weekend.”
So, in this case is the use of “você” appropriate or not?
Yes, everybody, I know it is a hassle to translate all to English. If it gets to be a nuisance, just skip it. But it really helps. Often times it is a word or two here and there or the use of it that makes a sentence understandable or not.
As a matter of interest, I have gotten to a point in the training where it was getting to be too much. In other words, too difficult to understand everything. I went back to the first lessons and noticed they have been much reworked. A very good plan. The voices seem a bit slower and that is very good. I also have been able to improve my scores drastically which means that I have progressed, even if it seems otherwise. I did an audio clip today and I actually understood almost all of it. I read the Portuguese FIRST, then add translations to catch words I did not understand and then run the audio. I found I understood quite a lot.
That’s good to hear, @hscharnhorst. I think we don’t always notice when we’re making progress. There are legitimate plateau phases, but also times when all the acquired knowledge is quietly being consolidated in the background. I’m glad that this restructuring of the units is helping you bring all that knowledge to surface.
Also, thank you for providing the translation, @pmfrancisco!
The imperative doesn’t really take pronouns, but yes, in theory, pode can be an imperative conjugation (second-person singular). In practice, the imperative isn’t applicable to the verb poder. How could we command someone to poder something? We can say “Trabalha!” (Work!), “Estuda!” (Study!), but not “Pode!” (Can!).
The “tu pode” that I was talking about is in the indicative mood, except that the correct conjugations are “tu podes” or “você pode” (you can). “Tu pode” is a Brazilian colloquialism.
Thanks Joseph. I am using a conjugation app called ‘cooljugator’ and it gives the imperative mood conjugation as ‘tu pode’. This app must be Brazilian as is usually the case.
Considering the very angry look on my, otherwise very kind, mother-in-law when she explained that ‘você é um burro’ and ‘você é na estrebaria’, I do not feel comfortable addressing anyone as ‘você’. I was also informed that even if people might not comment on it when being addressed as ‘você’, they certainly might think something and have a strong opinion about it.
This puts me in a bit of a pickle as I’d prefer to not offend anyone by using ‘você’, but I’m not quite sure what else to use if I’m not sure about the gender, for example over the phone. But perhaps I can get away with dropping the pronoun at those times?
This thing with not even the Portuguese people being able to agree on certain parts of the language doesn’t make it any easier for us who are trying to learn the rules! For example, one Portuguese speaker said that ‘loura’ and ‘loira’ are equal, while another one said to never use ‘loira’. How am I supposed to know who to trust in those cases?
I know! It’s a mess, because there are regional preferences, generational preferences and personal preferences – these are the worst, because many of us tend to present them as rules even when they’re not. In any case, when it comes to você vs. a senhora/o senhor, etc., you can just drop that part of the sentence altogether, like you said. You should always be safe then
Good to know, then I can feel more comfortable dropping that part when I’m unsure what to use. I did read that one might not want to drop it totally, so I’ll try keep that in mind. Thanks!
(just messing with you Joseph!)
But there are no rules for this, really, haha.
And, please forgive me if this is not relevant to the discussion.
)
We can say “Trabalha!” (Work!), “Estuda!” (Study!), but not “Pode!” (Can!).